Comments on Running With Lydiard: A Model for the Lydiard Method

I've just taken the time to read this. Great stuff...

2006-12-29T13:56:00.000-07:00

I've just taken the time to read this. Great stuff.

Ok, I'm a moron, but with the help of my beautiful...

2006-12-27T11:29:00.000-07:00

Ok, I'm a moron, but with the help of my beautiful blonde assistant, I was able to decipher the A to B comment. I forgot about the ABCDE fiber pyramid.

Carry on, carry on...

Whoa, this is some serious theory, while many runn...

2006-12-27T11:19:00.000-07:00

Whoa, this is some serious theory, while many runners (like me) just want to be told what to do so they can improve.

This muscle fibre and pace thing made me look at my recent two 21 mile long runs with Andrew. They were run at a conversational / easy pace (mostly) but the avg pace works out to 94% and 91% of my most recent marathon pace. So I'd assume that I should have recruited all my fibers and run out of gas at 18 or this isn't my MP anymore.

Probably the latter as my endurance may have improved with all the base conditioning I've done since Oct. 1 ... So my question is how do we determine the correct pace as we train toward a goal?

Thanks Mike and Mystery Coach!

That sounds like what I did during my last build (...

2006-12-27T11:09:00.000-07:00

That sounds like what I did during my last build (22m strong, two or three easy days, 15m strong, then three easy days before the next long run). I don't know if it worked because I got injured by a TV, but maybe the fact I was injured by a TV tells me something...

So is the fatigued feeling actually from recruitment of different fibers? The A to B comment lost me. My heart rate for the run was about five beats lower than comparable runs of the same distance and effort in the last eight weeks, yet I felt depleted and tired. The previous runs were not preceded by two days of moderate efforts, however.

Would it be correct to think the O2 and fuel systems were just doing what they normally do at that pace, but the muscle fibers in use just couldn't process what was being sent very well, resulting in the weird 'fullness' of the legs, slight soreness, and general heavy feeling?

Normally, if I feel this way it's because I need recovery. My heart rate on this run doesn't suggest that I do though. It's like my heart and lungs are doing business as usual, but my legs are going on strike.

I should mention I am still following the 'wake up, warm up, ok go!' plan, and not eating anything before heading out the door. The only run I take carbs on is my long run, and I just take in a .5 liter of Gatorade at halfway.

Eric, What you are feeling is the effort to move u...

2006-12-27T10:03:00.000-07:00

Eric, What you are feeling is the effort to move up to the next level ( let's say from A to B ). If you were to run 10 miles fast three or four days in a row and did not take in enough carbohydrates for replacement , the first day would use fibers 1-4 , the next day 5-8, and the third day it would require a huge effort to run pace when the unconditioned 9-12 fibers were called in. My next post will explain why some runners fool themselves when they run 10 miles fast then recover with a few easy days then run another 10 miles fast and just recondition fibers 1-4. A proper loading during your running week helps get to all the fibers.

After reading much about Lydiard's methods over th...

2006-12-27T07:49:00.000-07:00

After reading much about Lydiard's methods over the last 18 months, the information provided by the mystery coach makes sense. What is discouraging for me personally is that you cannot microwave Arthur's training philosophy. You have to put the work in eventually no matter what the distance is that you are training for. Otherwise the other fibers are not activated. No short cuts to maximizing your potential. Great post by the coach. Thanks to you Mike for getting his comments.

Hey, Mystery Coach. Thanks for another insightful ...

2006-12-27T06:41:00.000-07:00

Hey, Mystery Coach. Thanks for another insightful post. This is great stuff.

So my last three runs have gone moderate (1/2-14m-1.5h), moderate (3/4-10m-63min), easy (1/4-17m-2h), with today's easy run feeling like some of the 22 milers from last fall--easy, but with an ever-present feeling of near depletion. Is that what a bunch of rarely used muscle fibers feel like when forced to march, or is that just good old fatigue?

Makes me feel better about my weekly 20 mile long ...

2006-12-26T22:00:00.000-07:00

Makes me feel better about my weekly 20 mile long run at a good aerobic effort. The last six weeks I've hit 69 mpw with a 5 mile race, 70, 70, 70, 70, & I'm on track for 70 this week. Looking forward to 6 weeks of hill training, 4-5 weeks of speed work, and 2-3 week taper - all in an effort to go sub 3 at Boston.

Following this type of schedule I have been flying past people in the last 3-6 miles of my last 2 marathons.

Take care,

Mark in New England

The coach has made me familiar with most of the el...

2006-12-26T19:47:00.000-07:00

The coach has made me familiar with most of the elements of this post through some very insightful emails over the last six months. The part I wasn't really tuned into was the bit about tempo runs really not doing much more than activating (or waking up) those last few fibers (10, 11, 12), rather than conditioning them. From the perspective of a marathoner who also wants to race well at shorter distances, knowing that a longer run at 90-97% of marathon will actually condition those last fibers rather than merely activate them for a short period of time (in the form of a tempo run) is good news. You can get much more bang for your buck with these long runs by working all the fibers, and I would imagine this would help in lowering times across all race distances by allowing you to hold your optimum race pace longer without slowing down. In my case I was able to get personal bests by large margins at both 8K and 10 miles without any traditional speed work (V02 max sessions) while simultaneously building my endurance.

oh boy - you lost me somewhere in the 2nd paragra...

2006-12-26T19:27:00.000-07:00

oh boy - you lost me somewhere in the 2nd paragraph of that explanation. maybe I'm dumb, or maybe it's the two glasses of wine I've just imbibed...

Interesting! Now I'm starting to wonder which fib...

2006-12-26T17:02:00.000-07:00

Interesting! Now I'm starting to wonder which fibers I'm actually using when I train. Keep it coming.

Andrew, One thing I will discuss in my next post w...

2006-12-26T15:38:00.000-07:00

Andrew, One thing I will discuss in my next post will be on how different loads affect the next day. You are correct on how Arthur's training were almost all back to backs. When you run something like a MP run of 7-10 miles it puts it's biggest stress on fibers 1-6 now they might recover somewhat for the next day but less say the workout reduces their stamina to 8 miles instead of ten. Now when you run long the next day maybe you can get the effect on fibers 7-10 two miles earlier so an 18 miler might give you the same effect as a 20 miler when rested.

I follow a hard/easy program - at least I think so...

2006-12-26T12:01:00.000-07:00

I follow a hard/easy program - at least I think so. Basically, near or at MP, then slower than MP alternately - how much slower depending on fatigue and soreness. The goal is always to complete the mileage.

Would you consider a 12 mile MP run followed by an 18 mile slower run as back to back? After reading the post, I am thinking this might qualify. The 12 miler recruits the higher level fibers due to pace requirements while the 18 miler recruits them due to distance requirements.

Lydiard did advocate 1/2 effort followed by 1/4 effort and so on and so forth. In fact, as I type this, perhaps all his workouts were 'back to back'.

Many times, 'back to back' is interpreted as MP two days in a row. This, intuitively, does seems reserved for only those that have a massage therapist on hand. And does the 'back to back' come at the expense of longer runs and the subsequent 'mileage adaptation' (skeletal stress / fat as fuel / etc.)?

Thanks!